The Positive Thread...
OFF TOPIC discussions
Really glad to hear you're recovering, John. I'll keep you in my prayers. Hope you're feeling well soon.
Forum Activity for @nate
Shifting bridge and nut
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
John C. Knopf:
Wow! People who wrote on that page use English in some mysterious ways!
" Its is made of sturdy metal, which is very. "
Shifting bridge and nut
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LOL whoops, I typed out almost the exact same message you did at the same time
Shifting bridge and nut
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Both the bridge and nut look to be in slots. If I am understanding correctly, the issue is that they do not fit snugly into the slots and are not glued into place, so the bridge and nut are being pulled sideways in their slots by the force of the low D string.
After seeing the photos, I definitely think that you should remove the strings, and then glue the nut and bridge into place, taking serious care to make sure that they are perfectly centered on the fingerboard, and also being very careful to make sure that the nut is held firmly in place while the glue sets. you seriously want to avoid leaving any kind of gap between the nut and the fingerboard, as that will mess up your intonation. On some dulcimers, the bridge and nut can be replaced for different string arrangements, but your bridge and nut have slots for both of the common arrangements, so probably the bridge and nut were not intended to be sitting loosely.
Shifting bridge and nut
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AG Murton:
I had no idea there were so many factors to consider. I'm used to switching between tunings on the banjo like crazy and assumed I'd have a similar experience on the dulcimer.
It's not usually an issue, but with a mass produced dulcimer, there may be small manufacturing oversights to resolve. I would say the easiest solution is definitely to just glue both the bridge and nut into their slots with a drop or two of superglue. You probably don't want to use a bunch of glue, to avoid mess and in case you later want to replace them.
Shifting bridge and nut
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I have one dulcimer with this issue and what I noticed is that without the second melody string, my whole bridge and nut slide juuuust enough to recenter the strings on the fretboard almost perfectly, lol. Actually ended up deciding not to fix it.
It is not normal though. Typically, when the bridge and nut are both unglued it is best to have string spacers past them, which hold the strings in the correct places. Normally the nut serves as a spacer on the head end, and the anchor pins correctly space the strings at the tail end, but since your nut is not glued down, I would say there are two possible fixed that come to mind:
1: Simply glue the nut into it's slot. I personally think that gluing things down that weren't built to be glued can be bad practice down the line, but typically on many dulcimers, the nut would already be glued in.
2 Build a small "string spacer." It could look something like this simple drawing.
The spacer would be placed under the strings, just past the nut toward the pegbox, and would relieve that pressure pulling sideways before the tension gets to the nut. The spacer should be about 1/8" wider than the fingerboard, and that extra width should hang off the bass side with a small "leg" that can hold onto the corner of the fingerboard to keep it from pulling. The spacer should be made of a hardwood, with slots cut at the same spacing as the slots on the nut. Make sure the slots are deep, so the strings arent being lifted off the nut by the spacer. I would recommend doing this, because it doesnt damage or alter the dulcimer. The piece could be made easily and can be removed at any time.
updated by @nate: 06/04/24 02:59:41PM
Folk Instruments?
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iwbiek:
Hello! I live in Europe (born and raised in KY) and today I was browsing the website of a chain of music stores here called "Muziker." I was intrigued by the fact that their acoustic guitar section was divided into three sections: "dreadnought," "jumbo," and "folk." The first two were self-explanatory, but I was curious about the third. It seemed to be mostly parlor and 0-shaped guitars, with one very pretty archtop thrown in. Furthermore, I've heard banjo players here refer to longnecked banjos as "folk banjos." The plot thickens.
All three of those are guitar "shapes" but its pretty weird that those would be the three categories. I'm guessing to them, folk guitar denotes a smaller body size, intended for more intimate performance? That would be in contrast to jumbo or dreadnought which are two larger styles, but with different shaped shapes and structure. Just a guess.
updated by @nate: 06/02/24 06:38:04PM
Folk Instruments?
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Gstringer:
Since I come from simple folk, it was explained to me quite simply: a folk instrument wasn’t a commercial instrument, and widely available.
I agree, and also I think modern consumerism has really blurred the lines with this. Folk art is very popular and nowadays you can readily find folk instruments sold at music shops, often as a gimmick.
My local music shop sells jaw harps branded with Snoopy from Charlie Brown, spoons connected at the handles, as well as neckties made out of washboard material. They also sell fancy cigar box guitars with 2 rows of pickups and had a washtub bass with a fretboard. In stores, I have seen at least a dozen guitars that use a license place as a soundboard, and have never once seen a person play one in real life.
There are also tons of extremely fancy highly modern banjos stylized to look more folksy or traditional, typically by making them fretless, or tackhead, or by using a gourd. I can't help but laugh at the irony in a fretless tackhead gourd banjo with mother of pearl fret marker inlays.
updated by @nate: 06/01/24 03:40:39PM
Folk Instruments?
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What makes it a folk instrument? Being played by folks, of course! Not fancy musicianers or college educated theoreticians, or masters of stage.... just folks. Lol, but seriously I think that the interpersonal nature of folk tradition and instruction really defines a folk instrument, like Dusty said.
I also think that, more importantly, folk music and folk instrument tend to be words that people self describe with, denoting a modesty and sincerity to either the style of music or to the instrument. The word "folk" tells me that I can expect music that is intimate and genuine and not under some allusion of being excessively formal or pretentious.
updated by @nate: 05/31/24 06:51:14PM
How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I have been giving away my dulcimers to people around town, and out of the 10 or so that I had a couple months ago, I now own 3. One problem with making experimental dulcimers is that I end up with *tons* that don't look or sound that good. I'd still feel bad just breaking them down for their hardware, though, so they pile up until I offload them on local musicians. lol
anchor pin pulled out
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Dusty Turtle:
I think the reason Richard suggested using loop end strings was not to save time, but to minimize the possibility that the wood might degrade and lose the grip on the screw. If you never have to unscrew the screw, the wood would be more likely to stay intact.
It seems to me that the screw pulled out because it was way too short. If you use a 3/4" long screw, even if the wood eventually does degrade, the screw will just sit in it like a pin. Because the first screw is so shallow, I would think a more appropriate length screw would make threads below the area that tore out. A drop of candle wax or some graphite shaved off a pencil lead can be dropped into the screw holes to relieve the friction when screwing and unscrewing, and preserve the grooves that the screw fits into.
Dusty Turtle:
you can also make a loop end string out of a ball end string by removing the ball. Just squeeze it with some plyers and pry it out.
I will have to try that. That is a total game changer for me, thanks for the tip Dusty. I try to buy anything I can from my local music store, since it's the only one in town that was able to stay open through the pandemic. I didn't know it was that easy to take the ball out of the loop on strings, and I think that will come in handy a lot with all the guitar strings I have.
anchor pin pulled out
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When I am using wood screws for ball end strings, I will usually use this type
So that the screw is nice and secure
anchor pin pulled out
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In my experience, loop end strings for dulcimers tend to be in very particular light gauges that aren't ideal for much tension in DAD tuning with shorter VSLs. I prefer much thicker gauge strings, which usually means buying guitar strings, either individually, or just a set that includes the gauges i want.
Personally, I use screws as well as ball end strings on a lot of my dulcimers and don't find that it adds much time at all to replacing strings, less than a minute of screwing and unscrewing total. I would say that pins or headless nails look much nicer though.
anchor pin pulled out
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Those screws look pretty short, I'd say replace them all with longer ones. Putting two strings on one screw or nail seems like a lot of stress, even if it were a longer one. Since the two ball ends are stacked, the 'top' one will be applying a lot of leverage. It looks like there is a small crack running from the screw hole already, but maybe that's just a surface scratch. If the instrument will be 4 string in the future, consider drilling a 4th hole next to the melody string anchor and replacing all 4 with longer screws or finishing nails.
updated by @nate: 04/28/24 07:38:29PM
Question about the 6 1/2 fret
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This was a really cool learning opportunity
Thanks for suggesting this topic
Nate
Question about the 6 1/2 fret
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Dusty, the link between using the 6.5 fret and also fretting on the middle string is exactly what I was thinking.
Ken, that is cool and informative I had never even considered that other fret layouts could be used.
Question about the 6 1/2 fret
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A related question I have is: are there any historical examples of dulcimers with partial/staple frets that also include a 6.5 or 1.5? Also, was 1-5-8 in use before the 6.5 was added?
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
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Thank you Ken Dan Robin and Randy for the information, I suspect that investigating these designs will provide me with useful information
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
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A while ago on here I saw a dulcimer that had gap under the tail end of the fingerboard, with the string tension pulling it up from the box. The idea was that by having the tail end of the fingerboard (where the strings were mounted) detached from the box, the string tension would pull hard on the area with the string pins, lifting it so that it hovers a couple millimeters above the soundboard potentially increasing volume. Does anyone know what this feature is called, so I can look into it more?
updated by @nate: 04/12/24 07:56:07PM
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
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John Petry:
Having set up many violins & cellos etc over the years....You may want to explore using a sound post. Not really a "dulcimer" thing, but you're an outside the box kinda guy anyway. If you Google "adjustable soundposts" you will find much info good and bad about using them in so- called "real" instruments... Bottom line, is that moving the amount and location of tension to the vibrating surfaces [top and bottom] can and does change the tonal qualities. I suggest an adjustable only because there are no standard rules when it comes to dulcimers and the dimensions. Instead of having to re mount your strings, an adjustable may give you more room to play around, or just source some dowel rod and have at it..[or pencils, chopsticks,...] Changing the tensions to the body and try and find the "sweet" spot[s] if any? Then we'll have to find out if heart holes with pointy bottoms sound as good as rounded ones......
just the meanderings of a wandering mind......
John that's very insightful. I have built a few dulcimers with various soundposts, but hadn't thought about how some of that information can be applied to this question. Thanks for the food for thought.
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
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Ken Hulme:
I think if you had half of the string tension pulling up and half the string tension pushing down, the result is not increased tension but rather a neutralized/balance of tension not helping at all...
Ken, I think you may be right about that. My hope is that the forces won't exactly be "balanced" but opposing. That by pulling and pushing, the entire area would become much more rigid, and possibly more responsive.
My other main question is: if I shouldn't go half and half, what arrangement is optimal? All strings mounted to the fingerboard? All strings mounted to the box. I suspect that mounting them to the fingerboard rather than a tailpiece may produce more volume.
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
I am trying to ask about how to utilize the string tension to put the box under extra pressure, and if this can be good for tone or volume.
Here is a drawing that hopefully helps explain
Let's assume the dulcimers have identical dimensions and the same break angle, and the only difference is whether they are mounted to the fingerboard or the box.
In figure A, when the strings are anchored to the fingerboard, the 60-100 pounds of string tension should be trying to pry the fingerboard up off the box. I am wondering if this "pulling" is adding extra stress and tension to the box, and if having the wood under more stresses makes it more rigid and stiff and allows it to transmit vibration better.
In figure B, when the strings are anchored to the side of the box, the 60-100 pounds of string tension is laying across the end of the fingerboard, pushing it down into the top of the box. I am also wondering if this improves overall responsiveness of the instrument, by distributing that 'pulling force" across the tailpiece into the side panels.
I hypothesize that if you could mount half your strings to a tailpiece and the other half to the fingerboard, the forces would be pulling the fingerboard up while also pushing it down, adding a huge amount of stress to it, possibly making it more stiff and responsive.
updated by @nate: 04/11/24 12:41:49PM
Does soundbox tension affect volume and tone
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Hey folks, this question might be poorly asked but here goes.
Does a soundbox that is under more tension have any additional clarity or additional volume? Is this the reason that 'lighter' builds are more responsive?
When I think about a musical saw, the volume seems to directly correspond to the amount of tension out on the saw blade.
Similarly, a washtub bass seems to be quite a bit louder on its high pitched notes, when the string is pulling the hardest on the tub.
I have been thinking a lot about where the strings are anchored on my dulcimers. Anchoring them to the fingerboard should apply an upward 'pulling' force on the area of the fingerboard with the pins. Meanwhile if the pins are anchored on an actual tailpiece of the box, they are stretched across the end of the fingerboard and are 'pushing' it down into the soundboard.
Does one of these produce more resonance than the other?
Here is a picture of a test dulcimer I built where the strings can be mounted to either the box or the fingerboard. (Sorry it's a bit ugly, form follows function) I am thinking of mounting both outer strings to the fingerboard, and the middle string to the box. My speculation is that this will put a huge amount of extra tension on the fingerboard, and the middle string will help prevent the fingerboard from being pulled off the soundboard. sadly I can't test this out until the local music shop opens back up in a few days.
Any information of how much tension matters, and how to properly harness that would be greatly appreciated
updated by @nate: 04/09/24 03:54:26PM
What's the exact difference between a dulcimore and dulcimer
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Something I've wondered for a while is, if dulcimer is written in the Bible spelled 'dulcimer', are different spellings a stylization of the word done on purpose or just a product of limited literacy in the deep mountains?
If you could have just one dulcimer...
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That's a fun question. I've always wanted a Homer Ledford dulcibro. The craftsmanship is gorgeous, I love the metal sound, and it's a piece of dulcimer history. Unfortunately, but justifiably, they are quite expensive so that one might be a while for me lol.
Are two melody strings louder than one?
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Robin, double drone is very underrated in my opinion. I like the richness of the bass tone a lot. Some lute and baroque guitars as well as other older instruments have all strings doubled except the melody strings. This may have been for practical reasons (thinner strings were probably harder to make/more costly) but I do think it allows the melody strings to stand out more clearly from the drone.
Are two melody strings louder than one?
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Thanks all for the additional context and food for thought. My starting point was assuming that two melody strings are louder, because the fuller more pronounced tone has always made it seem louder. The first time I heard the thing about the two speakers next to each other, it was really un-intuitive to me.
The more I think about it, it makes sense to me that if two strings were tuned exactly the same, the effect of paired melody strings would be less noticeable, and the tone would not be noticeably fuller.
I also think the sympathetic resonance of the two strings off each other must help with sustain, which might feel like more volume, since the note retains its full volume for longer before fading.
New Dulcimer
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Definitely sounds very mellow and guitar like. The shape looks very similar to the folkcraft resonator dulcimers. To my eye, it looks like they took the exact shape for the resonator dulcimer and installed a saddle rather than a cone. I personally like the tone and look of that style, though it's definitely a very modern look.
updated by @nate: 03/18/24 12:12:45AM
Are two melody strings louder than one?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
I'm reminded of how subjective "loudness" is. When I was thinking about slight difference in timing and pitch two things came to mind.The first is a choir: a Google search suggests that a choir of twenty of forty people may only be perceived as twice as loud as one person, but the tonal characteristics are very different.
Another thing that came to mind is that with an extra string, more tension is applied to the instrument, and by doubling the amount of force on the melody end of the bridge, that might increase the amount of force being applied to the soundbox in that spot, making it louder.
Dusty, I am definitely not someone who has an educated guess on the topic, but intuitively I would think if you had two strings of different gauges, overall it would only be as loud as the louder string.
Also, I am not knowledgeable about subjective loudness but Im aware that our ear doesn't perceived the loudness of noise in a linear way, whereas a piece of software might show 1.5x as big of a spike, as best as I understand it, that would not correspond to 1.5x perceived loudness. I personally would not know how to interpret the data in a meaningful way.
updated by @nate: 03/16/24 06:53:03PM
Are two melody strings louder than one?
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That's an interesting question and a good point, Randy. I don't know the answer to that but I would intuitively think that playing two strings slightly out of sync that are the same gauge length and tension would not be any louder than one, but I would imagine that is why the sound is fuller.
updated by @nate: 03/16/24 04:32:23PM
Are two melody strings louder than one?
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Hey folks, I've heard it said that having two speakers of the same power directly next to each other is not perceivably louder than one. They are exciting the same air with the same level of energy, so the second speaker basically does nothing.
I was wondering if a similar thing applies to doubled melody strings. If both strings are at the same tension, channeling vibration into the same place on the bridge, is the second string not actually adding any volume? It can be really hard to tell by listening, since a second string changes the tone. It definitely 'feels' louder, but ears are very easy to trick.
Thanks for any info
Nate
String gauge and intonation
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Hey folks I was hoping to get some clarification about how string gauge affects intonation. I have noticed that an unwound middle string needs to be compensated about 1/16th of an inch longer than a wound middle string. If I don't compensate the middle slot differently than the others, it can often be up to 15 cents sharp at the octave, when properly tuned.
I remember hearing in passing a long time ago that wound strings need to be intonated to compensate for their core diameter and not their wound diameter. Can anyone verify this?
And if so, does anyone know what size core corresponds to certain gauges of wound string? For example, what is the core gauge of a .18 and a .24 string that are wound? Maybe I can use the digital calipers at my work and measure some cores.
I have noticed that in order to correctly compensate for my middle strings, the bridge needs to be shaped differently depending on whether the string is wound or not. Is this a common issue? and is there a better solution than just having two separate bridges with the two different compensations?
Thanks for any info, and sorry if the questions aren't asked very clearly,
Nate
updated by @nate: 03/05/24 12:41:54PM
Vintage dulcimer information sought
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Art S:
Thanks for the input Nate.
The bridge is actually set into the fretboard in the traditional way. It looks like it has feet because it is wider than the fretboard. But it is loose enough to shift if the strings didn't come in square and it was notched. Based on that, I think I will leave it alone and install a new spacer bar using standard bridge material.
I expect I will play it with a single melody string as I do with my current unit, but I was wondering if I could run a double melody through the same hole in the tail. At this point I have no interest in 4 string equidistant.
Ah, my mistake, the shape of that bridge tricked my eyes quite a bit lol. Sounds like a nicer spacer will work well. The tailpiece looks pretty sturdy so I would think running both strings through the same hole would work, but maybe someone with more knowledge could comment on that.
Nate
Vintage dulcimer information sought
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
That is a really nice looking dulcimer Art.
I believe the little feet on the sides of the bridge are to brace it to keep it from slipping to either side from uneven tension of the strings. This feature is useful for dulcimers that can switch between 4 string equidistant and 3 course with paired melody strings. The four string anchors in the tailpiece of the instrument are equidistant.
If you wanted paired melody strings, because the string anchors are set up for 4 string equidistant, the inner melody string would want to pull the entire bridge sideways, and the little legs on the sides of the bridge would brace it to prevent this.
The only issue is you would need pretty deep slots so make sure the strings cant pop out of them.
The benefit of a spacer is that it has very deep slots so that the strings put tension on the sides of the slots and are already the correct distance apart before coming in contact with the bridge.
It might be worth considering to make a nicer looking, more precise spacer rather than not have one, if you are planning to play with a doubled melody string, and not 4 string equidistant. An advantage of having a spacer (and corresponding slots in the nut) is that you can switch between 4 string equidistant and paired melody strings more conveniently.
Also, as Ken suggested, you should check that the action height and bridge placement are correct, especially before reducing the height of your bridge by making slots.
Good luck!
Nate
Bodhran (Irish Drum)
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Looks like a good time. The Bodhran is a really cool instrument. For how deceptively simple they look, they are very complex. The soft but powerful tones fit great into almost any type of music in my opinion
Nate
Ergonomics and Wrist Strain
Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!
Thank you Dusty this is very helpful information and visual context. I used to think there was no wrong way to play the dulcimer until the way I was doing it started to hurt. Now I know of at least one wrong way lol.
I am 6'3 with long legs that tend to cause my knees to be higher than my hips on most chairs and couches, which is something I was never cognizant about until Strumelia pointed it out. When I do sit on something that lets my legs dangle, it is very comfortable to use a strap and let the dulcimer rest across my legs at a downward angle.
In being more aware about my wrist position and posture, I'm already noticing an improvement in strain.
Thanks folks
Ergonomics and Wrist Strain
Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!
Thanks folks for these useful tips. Clearly I need to hold my arm at a better angle. I think also paying attention to the level my knees are at will also be very helpful. In general, should my wrist be flat with my forearm, or curved slightly downward?
Ergonomics and Wrist Strain
Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!
Hey folks, can anyone recommend any good videos, articles, or just general advice on proper form for fretting a dulcimer. The way that I fret can put a lot of strain on my wrist at times, so I need to improve my technique, but I don't actually know the correct way to fret ergonomically. Can anyone offer advice or direct me toward content that will help me to learn how to practice good form that puts less stress on my fretting wrist.
I am hesitant to just trust whatever comes up from a google search since I know so little on the topic, so Id be grateful if anyone could share any good resources or tips.
Thanks,
Nate
What Are You Working On?
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Wow Dusty, that sounds rigorous. I'm sure it'll pay off to develop that, though. If I enjoyed doing drills like that, I'd probably have a lot sharper of skills than I get from just plunking around like I do.
instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
One thing I find really cool about that is that speeding up music doesn't change the pitch of the notes so you can speed up or slow down backing tracks or "play alongs" and they will still be in the original key